An Islamic apologist wrote: 

Do atheists have an issue with consensual incest with no involvement of pregnancy provided there is consent on both parties, or would they criminalise it if they are in control of society?

Response:

Humanity/Empathy in us provides us with the "Fundamental Framework"  for constructing ethical principles. Therefore, there is general agreement on primary moral values such as honesty being good and lies being bad.

However, sometimes variations in viewpoints emerge when addressing secondary matters where there isn't a clear right or wrong response. For instance, some individuals may hold that deception is never acceptable, while others think that under some exceptional circumstances, it could be justified or required to achieve a better outcome. Such divergences of thought on secondary issues are natural and expected.

It's crucial to recognize that:

  • These are only religious people who believe that their god is 100% perfect, and thus he also made a 100% perfect world and system of moral code.
  • In contrast, those who aren't religious don't assume 100% perfection in the world or its systems. Consequently, we must assess choices based on the degree of harm or benefit they bring, striving for the most optimal result possible given the circumstances.

Consequently, we (i.e. the non-religious people)  have established a fundamental framework, of how to solve such issues. For example:

  • Our approach involves engaging in open dialogue. 
  • We also use our present and past knowledge and experiences to solve it.
  • We also utilize our intellectual ingenuity to devise new innovative solutions.
  • Through all this, we strive to get the most effective solution, which may not be 100% perfect, but still the most optimal one. 
  • Moreover, we recognize that even with our best efforts, mistakes can still occur. Thus, the freedom of criticism in our society makes sure that a mistake does not stay as a mistake, but we are compelled to reform ourselves and correct our mistakes. Fortunately, the freedom of critique within our society ensures that errors are identified and corrected, fostering continuous improvement and growth. In religions like Islam, this facet of reformation is absent, while Divine Sharia laws cannot be criticized and thus cannot be corrected by men.  

The history of incest is as under:

  • Ancient tribes already observed the fact the children from incest relationships were weak and suffering from several diseases. 
  • But ancient tribes were also involved in a lot of fighting and capturing women of other tribes. Thus, they also observed that their children from women of other tribes didn't suffer from that weakness and diseases. 
  • Initially, although incest with siblings and parents was prohibited, incest between uncle-niece was allowed, like in the Abrahamic religion of Judaism. Till the time of Muhammad, although uncle-niece incest was also prohibited, however, Muhammad still allowed incest between a cousin brother and sister. To see the horrible consequences of cousin incest among Muslim communities, please read our article: Cousin Marriages: Allah (i.e., Muhammad) Bears Responsibility for the Miseries of Disabled Children
  • But then a few civilizations also observed the diseases in the cases of cousin incest, and they prohibited it too. You will hardly find any cousin incest marriages in atheist communities today, but Muslims are still unable to get rid of it while it is a part of Objective Morality in Muslims to have cousin incest marriages. 

So, the issue of incest was completely dead in the previous centuries due to diseases in offspring. And it is practically also dead even today in the non-religious West.

However, in this century, after the invention of condoms and abortion operations, religious Islamic preachers came up with a new hypothetical question. They ask:

In the absence of objective morality, what stop atheists to involve in incest relationships, while no harm is possible to any baby today due to condoms and abortion?

Yes, as a non-religious community, we do face this challenge today. And here is the approach that we use to solve it:

  • Firstly, we don't deny the reemergence of this challenge in this century but openly accept it. 
  • Consequently, as mentioned above, we have established a fundamental framework for tackling such issues. Our approach involves engaging in open dialogue, leveraging collective knowledge and experience, utilizing intellectual ingenuity to devise innovative solutions, and diligently working towards finding the most effective resolution. Remember, this solution may not be 100% perfect and my not solve the issue 100%, but it should still be the most effective solution. 

The usage of this approach brings us to the following results:

  • Physical Harms: Although they have been reduced, they are still present. It is important to recognize that abortion itself carries inherent risks, and there is no guarantee of preventing pregnancy in every instance.

  • Psychological Harms: The desire to have children is deeply ingrained in human nature, and entering into an incestuous relationship already introduces psychological pressure. In non-incestuous relationships, even if partners initially have doubts about having children, there are numerous cases where individuals ultimately choose to embrace parenthood despite their initial reservations. However, in the context of incestuous relationships, the ability to reverse an earlier decision and proceed with pregnancy and raising children is not feasible. This intensifies the psychological burden on individuals involved, as they may be grappling with conflicting emotions and desires. The inability to alter their earlier decision further exacerbates the psychological strain. Even if non-incestuous parents are willing to consider abortion, the procedure itself can inflict significant psychological pressure on them. The decision to terminate a pregnancy is a complex and emotionally challenging one, and it can have long-lasting effects on the mental well-being of those involved. It is also important to note that people's desires and circumstances can change over time. However, in an incestuous relationship, individuals are effectively bound to their initial decision, with no option to reverse course. This lack of flexibility can lead to feelings of being trapped and contribute to further psychological distress within the relationship.

  • Power Dynamics within a family: The power dynamics at play in these relationships make them taboo for a reason. Family members can exert considerable control over one another, making it difficult to break free from their influence even after reaching adulthood. This is why teachers are not allowed to have relationships with their students, even in colleges and universities, where the students are adults. For instance, a girl may be influenced and brainwashed by a family member from childhood to engage in a romantic relationship with her cousin-brother, and then continue to be influenced by them to only love him and not seek other relationships. Such a girl may find it challenging to escape this influence and brainwashing even after reaching adulthood. Moreover, if a dispute occurs, then it breaks the whole family. 

Based on these facts, there is a consensus among atheist communities that incest should not be ECOURAGED, but discouraged. 

But the next issue is, despite this discouragement, still humans can make mistakes (while human nature is not perfect) and siblings can still indulge in sexual activities. So, how to deal with such cases?

Logically, there are two ways to deal with such cases:

  • The first one is to declare it illegal and punish those who indulge in incest. 
  • The second approach is to control this issue through "Social Taboos", by educating people and providing them with psychological help.

An overwhelming opinion (among the non-religious community) is that the second approach brings more positive results, while:

  • Punishing people will not solve this issue, as it will only go UNDERGROUND. 
  • Such people will also not come out in the open to get any psychological help. 
  • People will keep on living under huge guilt and mental pressure, and reformation is almost impossible. 

While the chances of success in the second approach are much better, as:

  • We already have an experience in the case of cousin marriages. Social taboos and education were enough to bring this rate to ZERO in non-religious communities. 
  • It makes it easy for people to get psychological help and solve their problems. 
  • People don't have to spend their lives under fear mental stress and guilt. 

But as stated earlier, we are flexible and able to reform our wrong decisions easily. Thus, we will watch, and if at any stage we feel that the 2nd approach of Social Taboo is not working, and is not producing the desired results, then we will bring REFORMS again. And then we may introduce laws which declare incest officially illegal and may introduce a punishment for it. 

 

Incest: Deficiencies and Flaws within the Islamic System

As previously discussed, it's essential to recognize that there isn't a 100% perfect Allah present in the heavens, and consequently, nature isn't flawlessly tailored for human existence. This inherent imperfection means that attaining 100% perfect solutions is unattainable. Instead, humans must navigate compromises and opt for the best available solutions, understanding that perfection in all cases is unfeasible.

However, the issue arises when Islamists exploit this imperfection in nature to refute solutions proposed by human intellect, such as addressing the problem of incest. They swiftly dismiss these solutions, highlighting isolated imperfections.

Fortunately, their deceptive tactics are laid bare when we shed light on the deficiencies of the Islamic system and its inability to effectively address the issue of incest.

In a genuine Islamic setting, a Muslim boy's interactions with females outside his immediate family, except for his sisters and mother, are strictly regulated.

Studies on primates indicate that in the presence of female outsiders, they instinctively avoid forming relationships with females of their group. However, if unable to find mates externally, they may incline towards incestuous behavior with female members within the group.

Many species of mammals, including humanity's closest primate relatives, tend to avoid mating with close relatives, especially if there are alternative partners available.

Reference: Wolf, Arthur P.; William H. Durham (2004). Inbreeding, Incest, and the Incest Taboo: The State of Knowledge at the Turn of the Century. Stanford University Press. p. 169. ISBN 978-0-8047-5141-4.

This fundamental issue contributes to the prevalence of incest-related psychological afflictions within Islamic societies.

Initially, Islamists often refute the existence of incestuous tendencies within Islamic communities. However, evidence from platforms like "Google Trends" exposes the widespread prevalence of incest-related issues in these societies.

For instance, data reveals that citizens of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan have consistently ranked among the highest globally in searches related to incest terms over the past two decades.

  1. Sister Rape

    Sister PornSister Fucking: From 2006 to 2019, Pakistan consistently held the top position each year in search of these 3 terms. (NotePakistani Government banned Pornographic Websites in 2011, But still this trend didn't end immediately. And still 'sister porn' was the most searched term on Google search from Pakistan till 2019. Please adjust the settings on "Google Trends" to see the report for each year from 2006 to 2019).

  2. Mother Rape: Pakistan was at the top every year from 2006 to 2012 (till a ban on pornographic websites by the Pakistani government). 

  3. Child Sex: Pakistan is at the top from 2006 till 2023 (and even the ban on pornographic websites didn't dethrone Pakistanis from searching for it).

  4. Donkey Rape: Pakistan is at the top from 2006 till 2023 (and even the ban didn't stop them from searching for it). 

(Note: Pornographic website Pornhub also publish its list of visitors from every country. But you will not see Pakistan on the list there, while the Pakistani Government (actually almost all Muslim countries) has banned this website. And Pakistanis visit this website only through VPN)

During the age when Pakistani boys are most prone to sexual frustration due to Islamic restrictions, they often don't have daughters at that age, while they fear their mothers. But unfortunately, their smaller sisters are easy prey. Pakistani parents should ensure they don't fall into misconceptions under the guise of Islamic education but rather take special care of their daughters from their brothers.

Shockingly, according to a study conducted in hospitals and gynaecologist clinics in Pakistan, approximately 82% of young girls are subjected to rape by close relatives such as fathers, grandfathers, paternal uncles, maternal uncles, brothers, and cousins.

For further insight into this distressing issue, please watch the following video featuring Miss Shandana Gulzar, a Member of the National Assembly Pakistan and a minister of the ruling party PTI. In her discussion, she sheds light on the aforementioned study and its findings. [Please enable the English Captions].

 

Link to the Video 

 

Ineffective Islamic Approach: Barbaric Punishments for Incest

Islam's response to the issue of incest largely revolves around implementing brutal and archaic penalties for offenders.

However, this approach proves futile for several reasons:

  • It fails to address the root cause of widespread incest in Islamic societies, namely, the unnatural constraints on interactions between genders.
  • Instead of eradicating the problem, these harsh punishments drive incestuous behaviors underground.
  • Furthermore, the threat of such severe penalties inhibits individuals from seeking professional assistance to address their issues.
  • The fear of barbaric punishments often leads individuals to resort to committing additional crimes (such as illegal abortions and even killing newborn babies) in an attempt to eliminate evidence of their actions.

The Population Council is a famous organization, which published a report that Pakistani hospitals and clinics did 2.25 million cases of illegal abortions alone in the year 2012. These unlawful abortions primarily occurred in cases of fornication and rape in incestuous cases, driven by the imminent threat posed by Islamic harsh punishments and the stringent honour code enforced within the society.

When human psychology is disregarded entirely, and only severe physical punishments are imposed without room for rehabilitation, individuals may resort to committing even more egregious offences to conceal their prior wrongdoings. For instance, the fear of brutal punishments incentivizes individuals to engage in additional unlawful acts such as illegal abortions and even killing newborn babies to remove any proof.

Incest: Newborn Babies thrown in garbage to hide the proofThese barbarian punishments ultimately compelled thousands of mothers and their families in Pakistan to even strangle and kill their own newborn babies with their own hands, and then throw them in the rubbish, to save themselves from the brutal Islamic punishment and to safeguard their honour. 

Edhi Foundation found 375 bodies of newborn babies in garbage piles alone in the year 2019, and that too only in one city of Karachi (Pakistan).

It's truly fortunate that Pakistani hospitals continue to perform abortions on a large scale, despite being illegal. Otherwise, thousands of more dead newborn babies would have been found in the garbage piles in Islamic Pakistan. 

Compared to Islamic societies, even in incest cases, the parents in non-religious Western societies are not compelled to kill their own newborn babies with their own hands and then throw them in the garbage piles.

Why?

  • Because the non-religious West is wise enough not to declare incest a criminal act and then impose barbarian punishments.
  • People in incest relationships don't have to go underground, and they can seek professional help freely and without any fear. 
  • They don't have to kill their babies to remove proof to save themselves from savage punishments. 

Please also see this case (Source) in Pakistan, where a man committed illegal sex with her daughter-in-law. But 2 small grandsons saw them in that state. Upon that man killed both of those 2 small kids in order to save himself from the brutal Islamic punishment. And when the mother tried to save the children, then that man slaughtered her too. 

Although sexual frustration is much less in non-religious Western societies, but of course, it is still possible that a man indulges in a sexual relationship with his daughter-in-law there too. But there is no brutal physical punishment for this in Western countries. The maximum punishment is that the husband will divorce the wife and also end his ties with the father. Therefore, if the same incident had happened in the West, then there would have been more chances that those small kids and the mother would not have been killed. 

Power Dynamics in the Family:

The power dynamics in the family ... without any sex education ... with total dependence on Mahram males .... with no contact with the outside world ... all these factors make poor Muslim girls extremely vulnerable (especially small girls). 

An ex-Muslim girl wrote it (and has been testified by hundreds of other girls in their stories on our exmuslim subreddit): 

I'll tell you from experience that the male family members who sexually abuse their own blood-related female family members are protected and the girl is either ignored or told to stfu (i.e. to keep quiet and not to protest against it). Nothing infuriated me more than witnessing that happen. If Muslim women who experienced sexual abuse started opening up about it, you would realise that it is mostly incest-based sexual abuse meaning the women were abused in their parent's home.

 

And now look at these Islamic Ruling:

Muwatta Malik Book 41, Hadith 15:

Malik said, "The position with us about a woman who is found to be pregnant and has no husband and she says, 'I was forced,' or she says, 'I was married,' is that it is not accepted from her and the hadd is inflicted on her unless she has a clear proof of what she claims about the marriage or that she was forced or she comes bleeding if she was a virgin or she calls out for help so that someone comes to her and she is in that state or what resembles it of the situation in which the violation occurred." He said, "If she does not produce any of those, the hadd is inflicted on her and what she claims of that is not accepted from her."

And the largest Fatwa Website (run by Saudi Salafi Muftis) Islam Q&A writes in its fatwa (link):

Rape is essentially zina (fornication or adultery) and is proven in the same way as zina is proven, which is with four witnesses. The punishment is one hundred lashes if the man was a virgin and stoning if he was previously married ...  Ibn ‘Abd al-Barr (may Allah have mercy on him) said: She is not to be punished if it is proven that he forced her and overpowered her. That may be known from her having screamed and shouted for help. (Al-Istidhkaar, 7/146 ) ...  

It is very difficult for a raped woman (or a small child girl) to bring proof of her rape. There are no people present where she is raped who can hear her calls for help, and blood also does not always come. The biggest problem is, perhaps 100% of women don't even know about these Islamic Rulings about rape that they have to immediately present their blood in public. Their first reaction is to hide their face along with their rape. Their own families could kill them in the name of Ghairah. 

Do you think that small child girls could act upon these Islamic rulings if they are being raped by their own fathers, brothers, uncles or the Mullah in the Quran schools? 

Reformation in the Islamic System is not Possible:

As mentioned earlier, a non-religious system operates as a "Dynamic System," capable of acknowledging mistakes, encouraging open criticism, and facilitating self-reformation. Conversely, an Islamic system functions as a purely "Static System," lacking significant capacity for self-reform. Consequently:

  • In an Islamic society, the issue of "sexual frustration" persists due to rigid constraints on the interaction between genders.
  • Additionally, the adoption of Barbarian Punishments in cases of sexual transgressions remains entrenched within Islamic societies, perpetuating secondary evils and crimes stemming from the fear of such severe penalties.